The Future of Blockchain and Web3

Kip (00:00:02) - Hey, everybody, welcome back to the show. I am super excited and thrilled today to have Bill Decker on the show. He's a chief Marketing officer, chief Revenue officer in layer one blockchain, also a board member, at Next Chain Ventures. So super excited to get into blockchain, Web3 and everything exciting going on now and and coming down the pike. So welcome to the show, Bill. Thank you.

Bill (00:00:25) - Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Kip (00:00:26) - Oh, my absolute pleasure. Well, maybe we'll kick it off with your origin story. Maybe kind of comic comic book style. Kind of. Where did you come from origin wise, business wise? And I'll kind of let you take her from there. Well, I was.

Bill (00:00:37) - Thinking of doing a few songs or maybe a sonnet. Perfect. You know, I've written some haikus, when we're offline. well, there's my beginning. I was a stand up comic in New York City, for a while. Didn't like the odds and went into sales.

Bill (00:00:54) - sold in Manhattan. I don't know if you've seen some of the Manhattan buildings, the Empire State Building or trading. I've been thrown out of all of them trying to, you know, walking around without a permit, knocking on doors, got into, sales for years and then got into marketing. And that's like saying you're into deep and you're into why they're two very, very different things, salespeople and and marketing people. They tend to hate each other. They tend to fight a lot. They tend to say, where are the leads? I got you the leads. How come you can't close business? You know the drill. grown up. That's a big deal in this industry. This industry is run by people younger than me with, without a lot of business experience. A lot of them had a good idea and got funding and haven't seen all the business problems that, in my case, a gray beard have seen. I my career has taken me all over the world, setting up companies all over the planet.

Bill (00:01:48) - That's very relevant to Web3 blockchain, because we are in a global business. We deal with global users, we deal with global teams. So it became very relevant to have that international background. The industry came to me about eight years ago. I worked for a regulator doing blockchain. I worked for an NFT company and then a layer one blockchain company, both in marketing and in sales.

Kip (00:02:11) - Very good.

Bill (00:02:12) - Parties.

Kip (00:02:17) - Oh that's amazing. So. Yeah. So. So blockchain. Web3 came to you? and like, how did that come to be? And how did you kind of get your, your feet wet and start learning blockchain and Web3 and then. Ultimately start marketing and and being a chief revenue officer in the space.

Bill (00:02:33) - There is a need for people who understand, for lack of a better term, business 101 in blockchain and a blockchain regulator approached me and said, can you help us? And we met. And for about an hour and a half they talked about the tech. Which was good tech, and I turned after about 90 minutes of listening and said, so how does this help me? What does this do for me? You know, what problem are you solving for me? Why do I want it? Why does anybody want it? Tell me please, why we would even get involved in marketing this.

Bill (00:03:09) - What's the customer need? I always ask for questions. Who's the customer? What's his or her problem? What's our solution and why is ours different? If you can't answer those four questions? Go home. You know, give back the investor money. That's a very key thing to know, really. And when people say, well, those are simple questions, I say, who's your customer? Everybody know everybody's not your customer. So my daughter, my mother, me, Kip. You know, go Biden. I mean, no, we're not all your customer. And well, we're working with influencers. That's not a customer. Right. Customers pay you. It's a balance sheet entry. The customer has to be your biggest fan. Fan finance. Do they have the money authority? Can they make a decision and need? If those three legs of the stool aren't there? That's not a customer. Hey, that's kind of poetic, wasn't it?

Kip (00:04:08) - That's very good. That's very, very good.

Bill (00:04:11) - I'm going to clean myself up after the coffee.

Kip (00:04:13) - Yeah.

Kip (00:04:15) - How about, Just as you're looking out at the market, any future trends, opportunities that you're seeing? In the Web3 space, or as is with your layer one, like you got problems you guys are trying to solve.

Bill (00:04:30) - What's. What's going to happen? The biggest problem in the industry is that everyone's selling to the same people. It's all plumbers selling diplomas. I don't even go to crypto conventions because everyone's trying to sell everyone to everyone to the same thing, you know. Move from my layer one to his layer one. move over there. Use our NFT marketplace, not theirs. use our infrastructure development kit. Use our our software tools, not theirs. Switch, switch switch. as opposed to let's go after, I don't know, the other 2 billion people that aren't using this. So when I speak, for example, on the industry, I don't speak at crypto shows. I'll speak at National Association of Retailers, Auto Dealers, Boma, you know, investment bankers, bankers, family office companies, all those kinds of trade shows as opposed to speaking just to crypto guys.

Bill (00:05:27) - And that's how I break the market down. And if I can digress a little.

Kip (00:05:31) - Go for it. Yeah.

Bill (00:05:32) - There are four C's in in a market. The first C is the committed. We're in it. We know it, we love it, we're staying with it. And that's in any market. I don't care if it's ice cream, blockchain, Web3. Right. Electric cars. So everyone seems to be going after that first. See that first. Committed were in. Because they don't want to have to teach. Uhhuh. Then there's the second seed, which is the cynical. This stuff is snake oil. It'll never work. I don't want anything to do with it. That market is there, but it's a very difficult market because the learning curve is so high. You're you're already walking into the room with a minus ten. Right. Imagine me on a date. Oh, right away I got to overcome a whole bunch of things, right? Oh, my. Look at personality.

Bill (00:06:21) - You know, I bet jokes. So there's the committed, the cynical. Then there's the curious. Okay. We are a large retailer. We need to know something about blockchain. We are a gaming company. We need to know something about Web3. We're interested. That's my market. To me, that's the market to go after. they should be approached. And they're in all kinds of industries and all kinds of places around the world. And then the fourth is the clueless, and then we're going to, let's say my mom. Completely clueless. She's not against it. She just doesn't know anything about it. And again, you have that same problem. What's the learning curve? How hard am I working, you know, to convince her to show her? So I would break that landscape down. And what you see in our industry, Kip, is. People are going after the committed. Everybody wants the committed. I want to move that traitor from that platform to this platform. So this is this is the underlying problem in the industry.

Bill (00:07:28) - The second biggest underlying problem that I see is when I go to these websites. I don't see anything about helping me with my problem.

Kip (00:07:38) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:07:40) - I mean, I got to tell you, and for those of you out there in viewer land, you might get upset. I don't need to see a picture of the team. That doesn't help my problem.

Kip (00:07:49) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:07:50) - Think of the best website in the world. Think of Amazon. I don't read about Jeff Bezos. I don't hear about his mission. I don't care why he started the company. I don't care about their history. I don't want to see pictures of his wife or his dog. I want batteries.

Kip (00:08:05) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:08:06) - Get me my batteries. Or not. I know that sounds very New York.

Kip (00:08:10) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:08:11) - But you've got 15 seconds to get me and keep me there. And you're spending a lot of money getting me there. Don't start telling me about the history. And we started this and we met at a bar and we decided we can make a better software.

Bill (00:08:26) - And then Joe came along and he brought a truck. I can actually adjudicate all your banking with one click. Oh, really?

Kip (00:08:34) - That's interesting.

Bill (00:08:36) - I can put all your loyalty cards in one place. Right, Starbucks, target, Walmart, Electric company. I can put them all. That's interesting. I can make your car smarter. I can tell you when to drive your car. I can tell you how fast to drive your car. I can save you gas. I can save you maintenance. That's interesting. One company came to me. They said, we do 180,000 transactions per second. And I said, well, that's great because I happen to be NASA. Yeah.

Kip (00:09:06) - Yeah.

Bill (00:09:09) - Pardon the jokes, but they get worse.

Kip (00:09:11) - No.

Kip (00:09:11) - These are this is perfect. So how do you get, how do you get or what's been your experience getting? You know these blockchain experts. You know, that aren't necessarily business people, but just really know the tech. How do you get them focused on the curious? How do you get, you know, how do you get them to make that shift? Aside from hiring you to go do it?

Bill (00:09:36) - Well, that's what you have to do.

Bill (00:09:38) - You actually have to hire someone like me to go do it. But, you know, I'll always start with a strategy. And people say, come and market this. I'm like, what's the strategy? And that strategy? Managing and strategy building exercise often opens up a lot of mental doors. Right. When you start asking who the client is, why would they buy this? Why do they care? What are they interested in? What else have they already got? When you start to go that direction, you can start to open the doors. But the fight takes place not in the marketplace. But in those two inches inside everybody's brain, where they're already dug into a position. Where the CTO says, we've got to have the best technology in the world. Well. And the only one that really cares about that is when we built it. Oh I'm holding up one of these things. This is an iPhone. It is not the best phone. But it's the best marketed one. The best phone is one you've never seen and never will see, because they're still making it better.

Kip (00:10:39) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:10:39) - As heat maps and, you know, spatial relations and can 3D model your room and it's, you know, $40,000 and nobody wants it.

Kip (00:10:51) - Are.

Kip (00:10:53) - Well, I am definitely in the in the camp of the curious, and I'm fascinated with blockchain and Web3. And I try to go to those blockchain conferences just to learn. But I am totally with you in that. Like in our business, I try to go where the where the where are the clients? Where are the potential partners? Not where are all the other recruiting firms and headhunting firms? It's like, where am I? Where are my family offices? Where are the VCs, where the private equity firms are? you know, the blockchain companies?

Kip (00:11:25) - No.

Bill (00:11:25) - That's when you walk into a company. You may walk in saying, oh, we need a marketing director, we need a sales director, but you're really walking in because there's a problem. And it's up to you to figure out what that problem is. We don't have any sales.

Bill (00:11:42) - We need a sales director. That's not necessarily the answer to the problem. That's part of the solution you bring. Right when you take your skills and my skills and add them together, it's like, okay, you don't have any sales. First of all, you are you compensating correctly? Do you have something anybody wants? Is there any backup? Are there any tools? Is the company sales focused? Is John doing I don't know, boiler room cleaning and sales. You know, I always say sales is not a skill. It's a mentality. And salespeople need to be treated a certain way, and they need to be given the room to do what they have to do, and they need to be kind of left alone. The the the most horrifying thing I've ever seen in business is the mass adoption of this CRM. This is such an awful, awful thing. If when I ran a Salesforce, if you were on it more than 15 minutes a day, I got upset. I've seen Salesforce is there in front of that machine the whole time.

Kip (00:12:44) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:12:45) - Oh, I know, Kip, I know. I know everything about him. I know what he had for lunch. And I know what he thinks about his kids. And his name is Wookie, and his wife hates it on Tuesdays. And, you know, he has a kite. He drives a BMW. Great. Did you pick up the phone and call him and see if he wants to buy anything? Well, no, I'm going to drip a campaign to him. Well, why don't you pick up the phone? Well, no. You know we're going to do 30 touches. And I come from New York sales.

Kip (00:13:12) - Right.

Bill (00:13:12) - Pick up the phone. Go see him. Get on a plane. And I see salespeople a ten hours a day in front of this machine. There's no money on that machine.

Kip (00:13:23) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:13:24) - The money is over at the client's offices. The other great mistake I see is people saying we're going to market our way into a company. Right. We'll Facebook our way into sales.

Bill (00:13:39) - And sales and marketing are different things. Sales is a juncture point.

Kip (00:13:42) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:13:43) - Marketing people only here know when they ask for a budget. Salespeople here know all day, and it takes a reality for that. And you sell Kip?

Kip (00:13:52) - Yeah.

Bill (00:13:53) - No. A lot.

Kip (00:13:54) - Absolutely.

Bill (00:13:56) - And hopefully you figure out how to learn from the. No. Right and try to sell to the s. and your personality is kind of not. Well, if you're not going to buy it, I'm never going to talk to you again. You probably the door open and. Yeah, much. So the idea that we're going to hire growth hackers. So what does that mean? Where did that term come from? What are you talking about? All of business's growth.

Kip (00:14:21) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:14:22) - And you're going to get all these customers digitally. That may work if you're downloading an app, or if you're trying to get someone to trade a token. But if you're trying to play an infrastructure play, if you know not a game or user, but a game infrastructure, if you're trying to say, I want you to take this infrastructure and gamify your company, you're not marketing your way in for that.

Bill (00:14:46) - That's going to be women on planes and in suits. Right. The the Foghat t shirt just doesn't do it anymore. And I did a deal with a large investment bank in Japan. And yes, we were all in suits right when we're talking and we're in suits and yes, sir. And coffee and tea and shine shoes and briefcases. And that was just to get in the room. That was part of the play. I still had to convince them that what we had to solve their problem. And the only way I could do that. Please find out what their problem was. Right. And that's the focus of sales and marketing. Marketing is kind of one way I'm broadcasting. Yeah, I can do surveys and polls, but it's really a megaphone.

Kip (00:15:36) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:15:37) - As opposed to a sales person, which is, you know, more picking things up, more magnet.

Kip (00:15:43) - Sure.

Kip (00:15:45) - Maybe we touched on a couple times on international, maybe touched a little bit on your experience. What was your experience abroad in business and how is sales marketing maybe different in some other markets around the country versus here in the US, especially with with blockchain? Or maybe it's the same because it's blockchain and it's.

Bill (00:16:05) - Well, I lived overseas. I was studying martial arts. I, I fought competitively for many years. I also lost competitively for many years.

Kip (00:16:18) - Which which martial art?

Bill (00:16:20) - Taekwondo and aikido.

Kip (00:16:21) - Okay.

Bill (00:16:22) - have you heard of Chuck Norris?

Kip (00:16:24) - I have heard of Chuck Norris.

Bill (00:16:26) - But you never heard of me because he won and I lost. So it was really kind of like that. So, I fought for many, many years, and that took me into Asia. To to fight and to live there and to try to understand the cultures as best as I could, understand the languages as best as I could. You know, the one thing we know about Chinese culture is the more we know, the more we don't know. The culture is mystical for a reason. They like it that way. You know there's no word for yes in this culture. There's no word for no in this culture. the biggest difference is that. If you had a continuum and you had relationship on one side and sales on the.

Bill (00:17:07) - And task on the other. The whole world is relationship oriented. And we are task oriented. Now people say, oh, well, that's not true. We have relationships with our customers. Yes, but you get them after one round of golf. So the sales process takes longer overseas because you're really developing a relationship. Now it's harder to get that business, but once you get it, it's harder to lose it. Now think of it like a marriage. Right? Okay. You didn't just run in and get married. You took a while. You dated, you know, romance. You met the parents, put up with the parents, listen to the parents, got yelled at by the parents, was told you were in a doctor by the parents. Had to eat bad food at the parents. but once you're married.

Kip (00:17:56) - Yeah. Okay.

Bill (00:17:57) - You left some clothes on the floor, right? We can fix that. Okay. You said something insensitive and rude. Okay, we can fix that.

Bill (00:18:05) - Oh, you promised to pick up the kids, and you didn't do it, right?

Kip (00:18:08) - Absolutely.

Bill (00:18:09) - The same kind of thing. When you. When you develop a relationship with an overseas client, you have a relationship. And if someone comes by with a better toy. They'll usually work with you. Hey, Bill. This guy Kip called me. He said he's got a better deal than you. What do we do about it? We're the ones. Can you lower your price? Can you give us better service? Is are we comparing apples to apples? Well, no, I'm a marketer, and he's a headhunter, so. No, we're not apples to apples. So that's just a little facetious, but.

Kip (00:18:42) - Right.

Bill (00:18:44) - The switching cost becomes very, very high. To the point where we're going to think it's unethical. Where? Japanese. You may say I got a competitive bid. I'm going to show it to my supplier. We may find that very unethical. But there it's. No, I have a relationship.

Bill (00:19:02) - It's something very few American companies understand.

Kip (00:19:05) - Yes.

Bill (00:19:08) - And, you know, these companies that I talked to, they hire developers overseas. And I ask a question and it stuns them. I say, who does he work for? Well, we're paying them, okay? You're paying them. Does he work for you? And how do you know that? Right. Or we have a distributor. We have a reseller, we have a VAR. How often concerning that VAR are you taking that person to dinner? Are you meeting their clients? How are you helping them? Kind of that same thing in the US too. You know when distribution is one the deal still isn't done. Right. I'm going to set it to music when distribution is. So you have to work with your distributors. Think of getting your bottle of soda pop inside a 7-Eleven. You don't just hand it over and say, good, go sell. You're co-opting their advertising. You're sending people over, you're helping them sell. Maybe put someone in the store once in a while.

Bill (00:20:04) - You're doing all the things you can to help that distributor. And that's just much more severe overseas. Then you add the language in the culture.

Kip (00:20:15) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:20:17) - You know, if you're working in Greece and they don't understand what you're doing, they may not tell you. Right. The Chinese won't tell you. They don't want to embarrass you.

Kip (00:20:27) - Okay.

Bill (00:20:28) - Hey, Kip. Your instructions were completely unclear. I don't know what you want me to do that's embarrassing to you. It means you don't know how to manage me, so they may never tell you. Well, when will they tell you? Well, when did your wife start to tell you her fears and fantasies? After you had a strong relationship?

Kip (00:20:44) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:20:45) - And then she said, you know, Kip, I really would like to marry a better looking guy. You know, when my wife finally told me the truth, I knew it was over. Get out!

Kip (00:21:04) - How about,

Kip (00:21:08) - I mean, do you? And this is I.

Kip (00:21:11) - Honestly, I have no clue what the answer is.

Kip (00:21:13) - Take Asia for example. Or China? Japan. Are they further along in in how they think about blockchain and Web3 and adopting it? Or is the US? Or as you look at other markets around the country who are who are like. The people that are fully embraced it. They're not curious anymore. They are committed. or who are the most curious? Or maybe that's too broad of a question, but I'm interested in your thoughts on that.

Bill (00:21:39) - Well, I'd like to break that question into 14 parts, starting with. The you know, Singapore is very aggressive with. Okay. And think think of Singapore. It's an island. It's the most densely populated place on Earth. It's 4.5 million people. they can't really build cars and put up farms. They don't have the space and blockchain. Really? You're talking about computers? People in an office, people distributed maybe a server farm, but that server farm can be anywhere in the world.

Kip (00:22:12) - Sure.

Bill (00:22:13) - So it makes a lot of sense for them to have an industry like this.

Bill (00:22:17) - And they've got laws that allow it. You know, Dubai is another hot place for blockchain. Sure. Dubai, it's they're saying, okay, we're in the desert, guys. Let's let's remember where we are. What can we produce here and how can we lure top talent here. We're not going to get some, you know, brilliant gentleman farmer from Minnesota to come live here. How can we do it? How can we be, you know, forward thinking. You know, El Salvador uses a bitcoin as its official currency.

Kip (00:22:49) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:22:51) - So they're very forward thinking. The problem with El Salvador is the infrastructure play. You know they can't get internet access. They can't trade in blockchain. It's difficult. the US is really seen so far still as the leader.

Kip (00:23:06) - Okay.

Bill (00:23:08) - The EU is trying to compete with us and they will do a good job. we just passed a law. Biden just signed it a couple of days ago. the crypto community went crazy. Crypto dropped. I don't know why.

Bill (00:23:22) - I think the law is very reasonable. What companies wanted to do is own crypto and not declare it on their PNL, on their asset sheet.

Kip (00:23:34) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:23:35) - Well, do whatever you want if it's your company kit, but if it's Ford Motor Company, I think I have a right as a shareholder to know how much crypto they're holding.

Kip (00:23:43) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:23:43) - So the law basically said you're going to have to disclose that. Which is okay. That shouldn't increase or decrease the price of crypto, right? As you know, crypto is a volatile industry and they're going to react volatility to anything volatility. Real world.

Kip (00:24:02) - Right now.

Bill (00:24:03) - Theoretically I'll be making up more words as this call.

Kip (00:24:06) - Continues. That's perfect. Yeah.

Kip (00:24:08) - We're we're expanding vocabularies and dictionaries all around the world right now.

Bill (00:24:11) - I forgot my song at the end.

Kip (00:24:13) - Right.

Kip (00:24:18) - Well, that's very interesting. You know? I mean, what? What are some opportunities you see out there for for blockchain or Web3 like? Or what would you like? Yeah, maybe we'll just start with that.

Kip (00:24:31) - What? What are some real opportunities you see for applications where it really does add value? Obviously it's limitless, but.

Bill (00:24:39) - It is limitless. But I'll tell you where I see it going. what's happening now is a marriage. So first of all, let's just, let's define a marketing term brand. You hear it used all the time, but I don't know how many people keep getting it wrong. A brand is an emotion. Between me and a company. Me and a prospect. You and your vendor. You and your customer. You know you have a very strong brand, Kip. You know, people meet you. They like you, they trust you. This has nothing to do with your credentials.

Kip (00:25:13) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:25:14) - Right. Like. Well, how many placements have you done? And how many things have you done? And what do you charge? They they they get this feeling of trust when they meet you. And that emotion becomes very hard for a competitor to take away. Sure someone can say what he's charging you.

Bill (00:25:30) - X I can charge you x minus, but that's negotiable.

Kip (00:25:33) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:25:33) - But the the ultimate feeling that you're giving is where this industry has to go. So I can build a brand for a company and protect a brand or partner with a brand they already like.

Kip (00:25:49) - Okay.

Bill (00:25:50) - And where you see a lot of the Web3 companies going is let me find an established, likable brand and be their partner. And work with them. you know, kind of like, polygon trying to work with Starbucks.

Kip (00:26:04) - Sure.

Bill (00:26:05) - And, you know, you've got the established brand, you've got the trust. People know what they're getting. If you ever have a bad coffee at Starbucks, you tell them they dump it out. They give you another one. Right? there was a diversity claim against Starbucks. These three, black guys were sitting there waiting for their friend. One wanted to use the bathroom. The Starbucks wouldn't let them do it. Starbucks said that's it. Anyone can use the bathroom.

Kip (00:26:27) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:26:28) - That's a disgusting thing to happen, you know? And we're just not going to have it anymore.

Bill (00:26:32) - So they've really built and protected that brand. So imagine if I could be Starbucks NFT player or Starbucks. I talked to gaming companies. I think almost all the gaming companies are getting it wrong. They are going after individual users to join the game. How expensive that is! Do you know why so many of them fail?

Kip (00:26:54) - Yeah.

Bill (00:26:55) - I mean, 99% of them are failing. We have a game and they show me the artwork and it's the robot. And the robot eats the chicken, and the chicken goes to the bathroom. And then they everything becomes a pizza. And it's beautiful graphics and it's, you know. Silicon Valley graphics. You know, Spielberg couldn't do this kind of thing, but it cost him 100 bucks to get a user. So how many users do you want? At 100 bucks each, at 150 each at 300 each. And what's the lifetime value of that user? I would say to a game company. That's great that you made the game. Why don't we take it to a corporation? Why don't we take your game of killing pizza pies with a mallet and take it over to.

Bill (00:27:43) - Citibank. And say you have financial products every day coming to you. Let's gamify the learning process for all your brokers and bankers to learn about them, right? So today we're going to talk about a municipal bond in Chicago. You know, 7% no taxes, triple tax free. Great. Boring as hell. Now we're going to gamify it. And these game companies have built the engine. They've already built that middle. All they're doing is changing the the guy.

Kip (00:28:17) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:28:18) - And no brainer. But they're stuck in their own way saying, no, we have to get the 22 year old. Well, everybody wants the 22 year old, right? But imagine if you could get 50,000 people in a shot. Imagine I could go to Merrill Lynch and say, you know, you guys are selling all these things. Have your. And you're you're not paying, Merrill. You're not. You're not paying a dime. That's going to be for the guy with the product. So some guy comes through through with a, I don't know, a cash withdrawal insurance policy.

Bill (00:28:49) - And you've got to train your thundering herd of 150,000 brokers how to use it, how to sell it. They'll pay for us to change the guy. And then these guys can win prizes while they learn. So now you got a broker Sunday night playing the game, you know, smashing the pizza with a mallet and it becomes a chicken and learning, you know, about tax advantages. Uhhuh. So it's that kind of thinking that has to come into the industry and it's not really there.

Kip (00:29:18) - Okay, that was my next question. Do you see any gaming companies as an example embracing that? That's brilliant.

Bill (00:29:24) - Yeah. No. Very few. I've done this a couple of times with some, some of our companies saying, I'm going to take you into the corporate world. It's a whole different world. It's not that it's not that sexy.

Kip (00:29:36) - Is that why they don't do it?

Kip (00:29:38) - Yeah.

Bill (00:29:40) - You know, everybody wants the same thing. They want a bunch of kids playing and concerts and big screens and beautiful women running around and champagne.

Bill (00:29:47) - They said it's not sexy. Yeah. You know, I don't know, $250,000 a month revenue. Passive is pretty.

Kip (00:29:54) - Sexy. That is sexy. And you can.

Bill (00:29:56) - Still go after the committed.

Kip (00:29:58) - Right.

Kip (00:29:59) - That can fund doing that right now.

Bill (00:30:03) - You got some money in your pocket.

Kip (00:30:06) - That's. That's that's brilliant. That makes so much sense.

Bill (00:30:10) - Those of you in TV land. That was for me, remember?

Kip (00:30:15) - How about, maybe switch gears a little bit? Just on just on leadership in your role as CMO, Chro and leading people. You know what what are some leadership lessons that you've learned or employed over the years that have been particularly successful? And. Whether leading salespeople, leading marketers.

Bill (00:30:39) - Well, you know there. There's no one great source of leadership. That's why there's so many books on it, right? good to. Great. And, you know, so good. These half of these books have been written by people who've never let anyone write.

Kip (00:30:58) - That's the interesting.

Kip (00:30:59) - Thing.

Kip (00:31:00) - Right, right.

Bill (00:31:01) - I mean, I'm in some international textbooks written by guys who've never done an international business, but they got my story. so because of my age now, because I'm a senior guy, I can say to a younger co-worker and be more paternalistic and say, if you work for me in marketing, it'll be the equivalent of getting an MBA. I'm going to explain exactly why we're doing things. I'm going to show you where you fit into the mosaic, particularly with millennials. They need to know exactly where they fit the millennial into the mosaic and how what you're doing influences the bigger picture. And management is an iterative process. This is what I want you to do. What do you think you can do? What do you think you can add? Where do you think you want to go? I don't understand why leaders don't say, here's a career path for you. Sure. Bonuses have to be magical and mystical. I can't stand the salary negotiations. The question I can't stand is, what are your salary expectations? Nothing.

Bill (00:32:03) - I don't work, they're not. But to me, there's a there's a manipulation there. Just tell me what the role pays.

Kip (00:32:12) - Right?

Bill (00:32:13) - Right. Hey, Bill, we've got an opening. It's $250,000 a year. There's some equity. There's some. Tell me that. What are we really playing? The used car game. Whoever names the number of first loses.

Kip (00:32:24) - Do you think.

Bill (00:32:25) - That much smarter than me? Really? I mean, I know I'm no Einstein, but I get that. I know that game. But it there's a bad taste there. There's a dishonesty. There's a manipulation, right? A recruiter knows the role, and the recruiter knows the salary range. And a recruiter should tell you. And a hiring manager should be the same way.

Kip (00:32:45) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:32:46) - So when I bring someone on, I usually tell them right away what it pays. This is the kind of money we're looking at now. Maybe they can negotiate up. Maybe I can negotiate down. Maybe they don't have all the skills.

Bill (00:32:57) - Maybe they're better than I thought they would be. Maybe there's other things we can do for them. Like tokens, equity, time off perks, health club memberships. the biggest perk you can give a young person is education.

Kip (00:33:10) - Yes. 100%.

Bill (00:33:12) - Worry about the money. You got the wrong person. The 20s and 30s. They should be drinking up knowledge as much as they can get. The idea of job descriptions. I like them, but only as a framework, because once you get into the job, you see that it has to change. And that's again a living thing. Oh, we just found out our biggest client is now Chinese. So understanding Chinese culture and learning some of the language and going to China is now in the job description. Right. We have to add that salespeople. The mistake everybody makes with salespeople is they don't answer the two questions and there's only two. How much money do I make? How many leads do you have? That's it. The product is secondary.

Kip (00:34:05) - It really is.

Bill (00:34:07) - If I came to Ukip right now and said, I got 1500 leads a month coming in, that I can't service, a deal closed for you would take an hour. You'll put five grand in your pocket. Do you really care what the product is? Right? It's like, wait, that's that's all. And people don't know that because the people managing salespeople aren't salespeople themselves.

Kip (00:34:28) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:34:29) - And then once you have a sales person, you have to find out what they need. And that's marketing collateral money for trips support. If they have a question, someone can answer it. Someone can help them coast selling. I'll go with them. they really need to be left into that mentality. And when they bring back information from the marketplace. They need to be rewarded for that.

Kip (00:34:55) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:34:56) - Hey, it's too expensive. Kip. I'm trying to sell your KIP Search, and I can't. I mean, you want way too much money. That can't be you saying stop whining. That has to be saying, okay, what are we learning? How many who have you talked to? How many people? Right.

Bill (00:35:11) - Are we going after the right person? Maybe you are right. Maybe we are too expensive. But that's rewarding material and you're getting it for nothing. To bring that back. Now it could be they are whining and there's plenty of whining going on. That's why I have a strict no whining policy. There's a sign on my door. The beatings will continue until morale improves. A salesperson is a very different animal. And if you get someone hungry. And who doesn't dabble in it. And that's what they do. And they do it all day. And you know what? You can call it? Sales.

Kip (00:35:48) - It's a dirty word, right?

Bill (00:35:51) - You're going to see today has been sold from the flag on your wall to the sign in your back to the microphone. You're talking to you. You're on. Somebody sold that. It's not a dirty word. Oh, we do client development and relationship development.

Kip (00:36:06) - Yes.

Bill (00:36:07) - The thing I'm seeing, and I sound like a really old guy when I say this, but I'm seeing this with the upcoming generation as people don't want to sell.

Kip (00:36:17) - Hey, you're 100% correct.

Bill (00:36:21) - They just don't. They don't want to go out and scratch out the business and bring it in, which is an art.

Kip (00:36:27) - Yes, it is an art.

Bill (00:36:29) - And when I have a sales force and I had a pretty large one at one point. I would say to my sales force, if you don't want to sell today, don't sell today. Go see a movie. Go skiing. Right. Go kiss your wife. Go kiss your husband at your job. I don't need you in the field cranky. And you're working really hard. You know, the appointment is just the tip of the iceberg. You know, we work hours and hours to get that appointment. So if you're not in the right mood, take some time off. Because salespeople are really actors and actresses. Right? I mean, I don't want to use you as an example because it'll embarrass you. Let's use somebody else. some guy named ship schnitzel.

Kip (00:37:20) - I know that guy.

Bill (00:37:21) - You have to be on.

Kip (00:37:23) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:37:24) - You have to be interested. Right. And I think that's who you are. But there's a lot of people that are not interested, but they have to feign it.

Kip (00:37:31) - Yeah.

Bill (00:37:32) - Oh, really? You play golf? Well that's fascinating. Yeah.

Kip (00:37:35) - Oh.

Bill (00:37:36) - You have a dog named Snookie. Oh. That's amazing. Really? Three kids, one of each. Okay, that's really right.

Kip (00:37:45) - Right.

Bill (00:37:46) - Oh, yes. Please blow your cigar. Smoking right in my face. Yeah, it's very refreshing. No, I'd love to watch you eat. Let's definitely go to lunch, because watching you, you know, power down a filet of flounder. But we have to do that.

Kip (00:37:59) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:38:00) - Oh, that joke was hysterical. Why did the chicken cross the road? Never heard that one before. So. But we are actors and actresses, and we have to be on. We have to be pleasant. salespeople. I always say one thing. What's the best sales tool in the world? And I always say, this is it.

Bill (00:38:16) - I brought it with me. Pen and.

Kip (00:38:17) - Paper.

Bill (00:38:18) - I sell, I write, I take notes, I read back the notes. Not only am I understanding the client, not only am I getting the ammunition I need for the clothes.

Kip (00:38:28) - For the clothes.

Bill (00:38:29) - Clothes.

Kip (00:38:30) - Right.

Bill (00:38:32) - but I'm also sending you a message. What you're saying. KIPP is so important. I'm writing it down.

Kip (00:38:37) - Right?

Bill (00:38:39) - Yes. Kip has a dog named Wookie. Okay.

Kip (00:38:42) - Uhhuh. So.

Bill (00:38:46) - Training is a key thing with managing people, and what I see in sales training is like a once a year thing, as opposed to a once a month thing. I mean, it's an art. It has to be perfected. It has to be added. You have to keep learning. Someone said to me, do you really want to be a doctor, Bill? You're going to have to be learning the rest of your life. Well, you do it too. I mean, we all do it now. You're reading the periodicals, you're creating the periodicals.

Kip (00:39:13) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:39:16) - And I wrote this book. It's a bestseller. I sold a copy to Susan. Best.

Kip (00:39:24) - The best.

Bill (00:39:28) - What I call it without a strategy, because so many companies I work with don't have a strategy.

Kip (00:39:31) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:39:32) - They haven't done this one thing. You know, this isn't the Magna Carta. It's fairly thin.

Kip (00:39:37) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:39:39) - But what are you trying to do? Who are you going after? How are you going to do it? What are you going to spend? How are you going to measure it? What are your goals? Goals are numbers. Think of hockey goals. you know people, sales turnover, market share cost. What are your objectives? State of being the best, the biggest, the coolest, the funnest. So I have to put people through that process of figuring out just what their strategy is. And the worst thing you want to do is start hiring marketing and sales people. And there's no strategy, right? You know, we've got 700,000 Facebook likes. Okay.

Bill (00:40:15) - Was that the strategy? Did anyone turn into money? Didn't buy anything. I said on this panel two weeks ago with all these marketing guys, and they all had the big names on there. Sure.

Kip (00:40:29) - right.

Bill (00:40:30) - and of course, as you know, I went to Harvard. I was only there for a weekend, but I did go. You know, nice campus. I'll tell you about my time at Yale Medical and other time, but.

Kip (00:40:43) - Well it sucks.

Bill (00:40:45) - And the question came out, how do you know when your marketing campaigns are effective? How were you measuring? And everybody's giving me these long MBA. Well, customer acquisition growth user. 240 Dimetapp aspirin. And I'm saying when they buy something.

Kip (00:41:03) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:41:04) - We can track that they bought something because of what we did. We know it works. If they bought more, it works better.

Kip (00:41:11) - Right.

Bill (00:41:13) - And I talk like a street fighter.

Kip (00:41:15) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:41:16) - Let's make it simple. Why are we making this so hard? Don't snow me with the terms.

Bill (00:41:20) - I know all the NBA terms. I got it. Yeah, I've got two in my car if you want one. But let's have some. Right. And I when I, when I speak, I speak in very plain English. When I speak to people who don't speak English as a first language. I realize they're doing me a favor. So I use very simple terms. Right. Because they're helping me. You know, I actually got stuck in a in a conversation where I was speaking Chinese. And I was working back and the guy made fun of my Chinese. I said, well, we can move to English anytime I'm ready. You know, I think I accidentally ordered the egg for young. I could have been wrong.

Kip (00:42:05) - Uhhuh.

Kip (00:42:09) - How about, It's just like your I mean, salespeople, I mean, interesting in our business. I mean, that is a whole different animal. What what are your strategies or your approach to attracting and retaining, like high performance leaders, high performance sales sales leaders specifically for organizations? How do you find them and keep them and motivate them and grow them?

Kip (00:42:34) - And yeah.

Bill (00:42:35) - Yeah.

Kip (00:42:35) - And that seems to be the toughest.

Bill (00:42:37) - It is. It is finding them is is easier than keeping them.

Kip (00:42:43) - Okay.

Bill (00:42:44) - The, you know. I always tell this to people. Salespeople are different than sales managers. Management kind of likes a little more power and sales people like accomplishment. And the worst thing you can do to a good sales person is make them a manager. It's a horrible thing because they that's a different skill set. And managers do a lot of paperwork. Salespeople hate paperwork. They detest it. you have to make sure the salesperson has the tangible and the non tangible. So tangible. Money, travel perks, vacation benefits stock. Right. That's really tangible stuff. And that's the kind of thing you see in a contract. That's the kind of thing headhunters talk about. As opposed to the non tangible. Is there a target on my back? Are you going to understand when I don't succeed? Are you going to help me? Are you going to give me the support I want? Are you going to give me the attaboy when I do? Well.

Bill (00:43:53) - Are you going to, you know, say, what can we learn from the sales person? Are you going to give me some status? Are you going to help me become a superstar? If I don't understand something, can I take a course in it? If there's a conference I think I have to be in and. Well, how much business are you going to bring back? Well, that's the common question asked by the CFO. And it's a good question. But sometimes you have to say, let's forget the ROI. People would say, well, what happens if you train these people and they leave? I said, well, what happens if you don't train them and they stay? That's even.

Kip (00:44:26) - Right?

Bill (00:44:28) - So the intangibles I find are very, very important. The number one tangible is money.

Kip (00:44:33) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:44:35) - You know, and they'll go to where the money is. And the comp plan has to be written to have the activities that you want that help them make the most money, but satisfy the corporate goals.

Kip (00:44:47) - Sure.

Bill (00:44:48) - I mean, there was a sales comp plan. I looked at where, they would get 20% on a new sale. But they would get nothing. If the client stays, that would go over to account services.

Kip (00:45:00) - Okay.

Bill (00:45:00) - You drive very hard to close the deal. And then the client would leave within a year. Salesperson didn't care. Right. And why wouldn't.

Kip (00:45:11) - Right?

Bill (00:45:12) - Well said. These people need to care. I'm like, why should they? They're not being paid to keep the client. They're also not being paid, paid to do prostate surgery. I mean, you don't care about that either.

Kip (00:45:24) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:45:25) - They really care about getting that 20% off the top. Now you want to change the comp plan to say you're getting 10% off the top and 5% a year for two years. We can play that game. There's a whole bunch of things you can do to modify so that they at least check in with the clients and find out what the problems are.

Kip (00:45:46) - Do this. I'm sure there's no specific answer.

Kip (00:45:49) - Wait a second.

Bill (00:45:49) - Can we. Can we pause for a minute?

Kip (00:45:50) - Sure.

Kip (00:45:51) - Yeah. You bet.

Bill (00:45:52) - I want to get some water.

Kip (00:45:53) - Yeah. Yeah. One second. All right, we're back. So my question was, I'm sure there's no specific answer. But in your experience, what's the best? Because I get this question all the time about comp plans for salespeople. You mentioned 20% off the top and then nothing or ten and then five, five, five. What is there a ideal for high performance salespeople? Way to structure comp where you want to win business but you want to keep it.

Kip (00:46:24) - Sure.

Bill (00:46:25) - Well, the first thing that has to happen. Is a salesperson needs to walk out of a closed deal and know how much she earned. If they can't do that, the comp plan is too complicated. And I have seen comp plans that are 20 pages long with bonuses and caps, and we do. We look at 90 days and then we pay 60 days later. And you know where you need an accounting degree just to figure out when you get your commission.

Bill (00:46:55) - It doesn't make any sense to me that it's difficult. And when I see something like that, I say, well, why is it difficult? You're making it difficult deliberately. Now. Why are you trying to trick me? Okay. I mean, and trust is a very big deal. Salespeople are in a triangular relationship. You know, picture. You're a kid and there's mom screaming one thing and dad's scream and the other. Well, that's exactly what happens with salespeople. There's the client and the market screaming one thing, and there's the boss saying, we can't do it and we want it in purple. We can't do purple. We tried purple. Purple stinks. No, but they want purple, you know, and you're sitting there suddenly your marriage counselor just trying to make a deal.

Kip (00:47:37) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:47:38) - So transparency is key. Complexity has to be nonexistent. then you have to arrange the comp plan to what you want. So if you have strong customer service teams that can keep a client or an account manager, that's actually diligent, maybe the sales person doesn't get paid on that, but maybe there's a trial period though, right? We'll pay you.

Bill (00:48:01) - But you know, if you lied, I'm not paying you for 90 days, right? You can do that kind of thing. cutting territories. Forget it. That's the kiss of death. You cut my territory. I cut your job.

Kip (00:48:13) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:48:14) - Oh, you've done so well. Right. That doesn't help either.

Kip (00:48:18) - Right?

Bill (00:48:21) - so the the comp plan is, is key, and there has to be a balance of base and upside depending on what the company's goals are. Right. Is this a very long term sale? Like I got a bank to use blockchain. That was 18 months.

Kip (00:48:41) - Sure.

Bill (00:48:42) - I mean, the commission was was minor, right? I have a base salary doing that. And I had 30 deals like that going.

Kip (00:48:49) - Yeah.

Bill (00:48:50) - So they had to reward me up front. For the base and give me, you know, a hit on closing. But, you know, putting a bank on blockchain, you know, you got like 35 people involved on the deal. And they all need to be paid.

Bill (00:49:08) - The commissions that are too big. Sends a signal to me. Which means you ain't got no money. You're hoping to get my pay at a futures, which all companies do, right? I mean, he's got a million employees. And they say, you know, the more people that subscribe, we can pay our staff. But when you sit there and say, I'm going to give you a very small base in a very large upside, you're telling me you have no money. Now. Tell me you have no money. And then I can make a real decision.

Kip (00:49:41) - Sure.

Kip (00:49:42) - Yes.

Bill (00:49:43) - Right. It's like you are getting. You want to get married. You love your wife, but you say, you know what? I'm going to have to have a girlfriend. And she can say, I don't accept that. Right? But she can make a real decision.

Kip (00:49:55) - Yes. Right.

Bill (00:49:58) - And she or she says, I want to marry you, Kit, but you know, I have to go on opera season for nine months a year.

Bill (00:50:03) - You can make a real decision. So arm me with the truth and say, this is what our situation is. we don't have enough to give you a huge base. And I'll say, fine. Tell me about Leeds. Right. Leeds. Leeds. We all want cold calling. I'm so old. have you heard of Abraham Lincoln?

Kip (00:50:25) - I have.

Kip (00:50:25) - Heard of Abraham.

Kip (00:50:26) - Lincoln. Okay, so he was.

Bill (00:50:27) - He was in law school with me.

Kip (00:50:29) - so.

Bill (00:50:30) - And Susan. Susan B Anthony actually was one of my first dates.

Kip (00:50:35) - Oh, you've lived quite a life.

Bill (00:50:40) - But I did. I sold back in the days of cold calling. Here's a bunch of index cards. Go cut a deal. Find them. Approach them. Close them. And by the way, just for your pain, we're going to give you very little money, you know, just to make just as even out the score so that you're really miserable. Best training I've ever had. You know you can do anything after that.

Kip (00:51:04) - Sure.

Bill (00:51:05) - But now it's very much where the leads. What kind of. Where is the marketing department producing leads? Where are the conferences we're speaking at? Right. What PR are we doing? What advertising are we doing? These are the kinds of questions that a high performer is going to ask right away. They may ask about career paths. They may say, where do I go from here? Where do I go from here? Can I I have a friend who sells copy machines for canon. and he now has two clients. Each one's over $1 billion. Wow. That's where he wanted to go. Yeah, right. Didn't want 7000 clients. He wanted two clients. He knows the personalities well, they're worldwide clients. And that's what he deals with. And that was part of his career path. This is where I want to end up. In the process. Internally. Salespeople are kind of hated. Operations and sales hate each other more than marketing and sales.

Kip (00:52:02) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:52:03) - A good salesman shouldn't be at the office.

Kip (00:52:06) - 100% agree with that. Yes.

Bill (00:52:09) - And they they go out to lunch that's paid for dinners that are paid for. They go to conferences and some of them are in quite interesting places. Vegas and Denver and L.A. and Singapore. That's very sexy. That seems very glamorous. It's exhausting. You and I know that, right?

Kip (00:52:27) - Right, right.

Bill (00:52:28) - There's nothing sexy about it. No.

Kip (00:52:30) - There isn't.

Bill (00:52:32) - But the operations people stuck behind a computer stuck in customer service. They say wow. What do you really do? I used to work on a sales force and they'd say, well, let's take one of these operations people and put them on an appointment with a sales person. So they can see what the salespeople do.

Kip (00:52:51) - Yes, I.

Bill (00:52:52) - Said, if they really want to see what I do, let them sit next to me at the phone for nine hours trying to get that appointment. Because that appointment is the tip of the iceberg. I've got to. Don. We're having coffee. I'm cracking jokes.

Bill (00:53:03) - I'm taking notes, I'm closing deals. I'm being funny. Right? That's that's the fun.

Kip (00:53:09) - Part, right?

Bill (00:53:10) - Exactly right. The. How many calls do you make to get to get a lead skip a lot. And how many times you hear no, go away a lot. How about the freezing of the position? Have you ever been in that position? Oh, yeah. Talking to guys like me. Well, they love you. They need you. Oh, they're putting the position on hold, right?

Kip (00:53:30) - And in our business, I mean, it's it is. I mean, not that every isn't, but it's humans and all the crazy things that happen with human beings on both sides, on the client side and the candidate side. It's unbelievable. Like we have. I mean, I won't say we've seen it all because I'm sure there's something else crazy out there coming, but we have seen unbelievable things that are just shocking. And it's and it and it goes to the with all of sales.

Kip (00:53:59) - It's like. Time kills every deal, no matter how amazing it is. Time always. And I just hone this into my team. Time kills deals. You need to keep the momentum going. Keep things moving forward, no matter how great. Both sides love each other. Given enough time, it will die.

Kip (00:54:19) - Yeah. Yeah.

Bill (00:54:22) - It's a good point. And that's where marketing comes in. Because I mean I can set you up with a toolkit I have of hundreds of pieces of collateral. Hundreds.

Kip (00:54:35) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:54:36) - And so what I believe in doing is giving salespeople tools that don't say, hey, hire me. Right. Here's a book I'll send you. Here's another one I'll send you. Here's a video I'll send you. all of my marketing collateral is really about solving a problem. So I might send this YouTube to somebody. As opposed to hire me. I'm the best there is. And, you know, hire Kip, and, you know, we're great. No, here we are.

Bill (00:55:05) - Two, you know, established professionals talking about business problems. Maybe you'll get something out. Right. And that's what collateral has to be so that you have something to send people. You know, my least favorite words in the subject of an email or checking.

Kip (00:55:22) - In, right?

Bill (00:55:24) - Well, let's look at that when you tell me you're checking in. You're creating a problem for me.

Kip (00:55:32) - That's exactly it. Yes. Yes.

Kip (00:55:35) - Right.

Bill (00:55:36) - As opposed to Bill, I found an article. You're going to love it. You know, it's about bad headhunters in the blockchain business.

Kip (00:55:44) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:55:45) - And you know seven ways your headhunter can rip you off. Uhhuh. 15 mistakes your marketing guy is going to make. Three reasons you don't want anyone under 40 to be your CFO. You know something that actually helps your business, right? Because I'm a bit of an entertainer and I'm a marketing guy, I try to make it in an entertaining way.

Kip (00:56:04) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:56:05) - You know, I just did the Brooklyn view of.

Bill (00:56:06) - Of blockchain. Right. Blockchain with a Brooklyn accent.

Kip (00:56:10) - That's awesome.

Bill (00:56:11) - And I sent that to people. I have a white paper. It's on my LinkedIn called No More Lies. Tokenize explains tokenization. But I did it with a New York voice. I didn't do a white paper which no one wants to read. The guy who wrote it doesn't want to read it. I did a position piece to try to make it funny, try and make it interesting and to solve a problem. So that's where marketing really has to support sales. And if the top performer, which was your original question, does see that they won't stay. They say I'm all alone. And, you know, when I, sold in New York, I realized there was no money in my office. All the money was in the client's offices.

Kip (00:56:56) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:56:57) - And my sales manager, who I'll never forget as the worst sales manager ever said, you're not in the office enough. And I said, well, put a revolving door there so that the clients can just walk right in because.

Bill (00:57:10) - See any in the office?

Kip (00:57:11) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:57:14) - Yeah. But people are upset. People are not selling anything. They're not upset at me. Right, right. They're just taking it out on me. You know, there was a company called Lanier which faithfully went out of business. It was written up and In Search of excellence. It was the third biggest computer seller in the country. At one.

Kip (00:57:31) - Point.

Bill (00:57:31) - They didn't have desks. They had phone booths and, you know, you didn't have to pay if you were a sales guy, but you stood a little table for your notes and you stood there and you made your calls and then you were out.

Kip (00:57:44) - That's an interesting concept.

Bill (00:57:47) - Yeah. So your top sales performer, they're really going to be considered considering money leads support. And the intangible can go very long way.

Kip (00:57:57) - Yeah.

Kip (00:57:58) - So how do you like. And you obviously have touched on this but what. Once you've got them, what are things that you can employ to ensure their ongoing growth and their development as salespeople?

Bill (00:58:10) - Part of their job is teaching the company.

Bill (00:58:13) - And that's actually a kind of a status thing for sales person. Where they come back and say, this is what we're learning about the market, this is what we're and implementing what they say. Right? I mean, instead of them just pontificating, actually listening, you know, we can actually make that improvement. We can change that. We can build that collateral. We can, you know, make it purple if that's what they really want. You know, that's a can of spray paint, whatever. so that they feel that they're being listened to. And that's the problem that you see with most people in the world. They just don't feel like being listened to.

Kip (00:58:45) - Right? Absolutely.

Bill (00:58:46) - What's going on in politics in America? No one's listening to the other side.

Kip (00:58:49) - Right. And it's.

Bill (00:58:50) - Hard to. But if they felt they were being listened to, they might soften up a little bit. They might. It's I don't know, we're a little too cultish here in this country now.

Kip (00:59:01) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:59:02) - We don't want to digress and go into that, but the, the intangibles, the. Thank you for the business. Thank you for bringing in the business. I know how hard it is to bring in the business. Remember their actors and actresses. They're putting on a mask and a face. The second they get on that phone. And they're trying to stay in very high energy. So I went to work for a company. They had a sales guy. He was so good. And my CEO said, how will you manage him? I said, I'm going to give him a hot towel and a cookie. He doesn't need managing.

Kip (00:59:40) - Uhhuh.

Bill (00:59:42) - You know, the four words that people need to learn how to say is how can I help?

Kip (00:59:47) - Yes.

Bill (00:59:48) - That's all I'm going to ask him. How can I help? You're doing so well. What do you need for me? And he told me, he said, you know, Bill, I need a book. We need a book on this company.

Bill (00:59:59) - I don't think anyone's going to read it, I said. Got it done. We'll take care of it. I want a popcorn machine. Take care of that, too. I mean, how can I? And you have to think that way. So you're. There's a term. It's so overused. Servant leadership.

Kip (01:00:14) - Right.

Bill (01:00:15) - It's nauseating, but it's true. It's the reason it's overused. Does make sense. You know I don't beat someone up over their numbers if a sales person can't hit their numbers. There's a problem. And it might not be this problem with the salesperson. It might be our comp plan. It might be our offer stinks. It might be our prices. It might be the economy's, you know, down the drain. There's a million reasons they don't hit their numbers. So it would be my job to help them hit their numbers. You know, I've got a lot of money and time and aggravation poured into this asset of a salesperson.

Kip (01:00:51) - Yeah.

Bill (01:00:52) - Let's maximize it.

Kip (01:00:54) - Let's make sure.

Bill (01:00:56) - Tell me the problems you're having. Well, I don't have enough leads. Are leads again or you know I. Right? Or, you know, we're too much like the other competitors or no one's ever heard of us. Or can we let them try it free for a while? I mean, sass is one of those things. You know, I always looked at software and said, okay, who's better at this than me? How about Bill.

Kip (01:01:20) - Gates?

Bill (01:01:22) - Maybe you heard of him. Probably amount to something someday. He gave away software?

Kip (01:01:27) - Yes, he did take it.

Kip (01:01:30) - Use it.

Bill (01:01:31) - Enjoy it. I mean, companies should do that kind of thing regularly. And they should try to really get on the side of the table of the client. You know, to the point where I would actually get up and move seats.

Kip (01:01:47) - Uhhuh.

Bill (01:01:48) - So we're at a table and I'm across from you, and then it's like, you know, and I get this comment all the time. My sales force can't sell.

Bill (01:01:55) - And I'll get up and I'll sit right next to the client and say, okay, that's a problem. Let's put it in front of us. Now it's both of our problems. Now let's talk about ways to fix it. So getting into that trusted advisor status, a salesperson is a problem solver. They really are. And an older sales person. And I always say this. You know, I'm out there interviewing and talking for jobs. And some of them have been in sales and they say, well, gee, you know, we're looking for someone you know, is 26 years old. I said, that's a kid with a product.

Kip (01:02:30) - Uhhuh.

Bill (01:02:31) - I can sit down with the CEO and talk to her about business. Our CFO talked to him about business. It's a different sale for sure. I get it.

Kip (01:02:41) - Snickers bars.

Bill (01:02:44) - But we're selling solutions that get ingrained into your into your service, into your chain, into your network. So you want somebody to seeing the kind of business problems you're seeing.

Bill (01:02:55) - Like great. Bill blockchain's great and I get what it does. But I got to pay all this money to have people trained, right? That's a problem we have to deal with. What's the cost of. I always ask a question. I've been asking this question for 25 years. Three people knew the answer. My question is, how much does an employee cost you per minute? I always ask that question.

Kip (01:03:18) - Uhhuh.

Bill (01:03:19) - Because then my sales tool becomes a spreadsheet. So it takes some of these, you know, everyone's trying to get developers onto their thing. You know, selling to developers, repeating the offers. And they're all selling the same thing interoperability, scalability, ease of use. They're all selling the exact same thing. And I don't care who they are. Right. But no one's selling it as a financial argument.

Kip (01:03:44) - Uhhuh.

Bill (01:03:44) - How much is a developer cost? $300 an hour. Okay. How much is that per minute? Well. Five bucks. No it's not. Are they using any real estate? Are they paying any benefits? Are you paying any taxes? Maybe it's more like 750.

Bill (01:03:59) - Now. How many hours did it take to work on the Ethereum platform versus our platform to do a third of the time? That's $40,000 versus $17,000, say?

Kip (01:04:12) - Yes.

Bill (01:04:12) - How many developers do you have? How many ways do you want to win? I'm going to add you give me the numbers. No, Bill. You're wrong. It's actually $4 a minute. Great. Put that into the spreadsheet. So you're spending X. I can do it for one fifth x. Training time will be one time x. You make money? Project one. Are you interested? Right.

Kip (01:04:33) - Uhhuh.

Bill (01:04:34) - As opposed to. We're more scalable. Everyone's more scalable. We're interoperable. Everyone's more interoperable. You know, Solana has done amazing things.

Kip (01:04:44) - Uhhuh.

Bill (01:04:45) - And amazing things. And it's fast and it works. And the fast part is a big deal.

Kip (01:04:51) - Uhhuh.

Bill (01:04:52) - Everything works, but it's fast. And that's changed a lot of lives. And that's why they become so popular. But Solana did something else. They partnered with Shopify.

Bill (01:05:03) - I told you, let's connect with the big grant. Right? I mean, no one heard of Solana. Our community has but everyone's Shopify right. So that type of thing. Let's bring in a big brand. Let's work on speed and accuracy. And is the software better? Probably. But that's not what I'm buying.

Kip (01:05:26) - Uhhuh.

Bill (01:05:27) - I'm buying the brand. I'm buying the quickness. Is it hipper? Yeah. They're saying that rust is hip. It's cool. I want to work on rust. Uhhuh. Okay, well, that's Alana, so that works too. But you see all of that. Very little is about the actual product for sure. Yeah, and more about the benefit of it. And that goes back to our problem in the space. Everyone is telling me about the product. This is an iPhone. I have no idea how it works. I know I push the button and I'm on with Kip.

Kip (01:06:05) - Uhhuh.

Bill (01:06:06) - Push the button. I'm on LinkedIn. I push the button. I can see my stocks.

Bill (01:06:11) - Right? I push the button. I can see my photos. But if you asked me how how heavy this is, what's in it? Processor, compressor, even storage, I don't care. So I'll start in the cloud. Right, I just benefit. It's a telephone. It's an iPod. It's a camera. It's a calendar. Right. How does it work? Who cares? And I get into this and, you know, when I interview, even when I interview for jobs. They put me through these tech meetings where they're trying to grill me on the tech. And I don't want to say I don't care. Because I do, you know if I'm going to market it but.

Kip (01:06:54) - Yeah.

Bill (01:06:55) - Yeah. Right and they never will. Yeah, there's a community of developers that are going to ask these questions, these in-depth development questions, which I'll never be able to answer and no one can answer. And the answer keeps changing and protecting. But really, is this easier to work with? Can I can I do more quickly? And those.

Bill (01:07:23) - That benefit. That's cleaning supplies. Do I scrub my toilet less if I use your soap, right? Do I get less maintenance and time at the shop if I buy your electric vehicle? To my shoes last longer if I buy these. These things haven't changed and they're never going to change.

Kip (01:07:42) - Uhhuh.

Bill (01:07:43) - Instead of this constant. Well, here's the tech and it does this and it isn't the latest, you know. So my my advice to your listeners. And viewers would be, first of all, get better looking guests on the show. That's the first thing I was like, get someone who's head doesn't shine into the mic is focused on the benefits. Focus on how this solves my problem. Back in sales school they taught us no problem. No sale.

Kip (01:08:14) - Right. What were.

Bill (01:08:15) - You solving? Who's the customer? Customer is your fan. Finance 38. What's his or her problem? What's our solution and why is it better?

Kip (01:08:26) - That is a perfect way to end this. I thank you so much.

Kip (01:08:29) - This has been fascinating, educational, entertaining, funny. This is I really appreciate your time. This has been fantastic. Thank you so very much.

Bill (01:08:39) - I hope you liked those jokes. I just bought them.

Kip (01:08:44) - You can tell you got that, that comic background for sure.

Kip (01:08:48) - Yes, yes.

Bill (01:08:50) - if you think I'm funny, you should hear what my wife says.

Kip (01:08:52) - Yeah.

Bill (01:08:54) - You're hysterical. Sleep in a garage.

Kip (01:08:58) - Well, good. Well, thank you so much again. I really do appreciate it. This has been fantastic and, covered a lot of things, so thank you. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it.

Kip (01:09:07) - My pleasure. Kip. All right.